Random musings

[wiseheart]

I've rewatched the 3rd season Babylon 5 episode "And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place" yesterday, and a funny thought occurred to me.

Tolkien, who was a devout Catholic, consequently left out any aspects of an organized religion from his work, even though there are, of course, clear parallels.

JMS, who's a declared atheist, can't stop dealing with religious stuff in B5. Really, it reminds me a little of how straight women keep writing male-on-male slash. Something about the forbidden fruit and all that... only the other way round.

Rabid B5 fans have been raving about Star Trek inferiority for uncounted years, their main argument being that Trek lacked originality. Plus, they raved about DS9 being a shameles rip-off of B5, just because both series took place on a space station. Some equally stupid Trekkers riposted that B5 was ripping off DS9.

Now, I happen to like B5 a great deal (even though I'm a devout Trekkie), but I always found it amusing that nobody seems to address the actual rip-off... cuz, let's face it, JMS has ripped off Tolkien, big time. Starting with naming the homeworld of the Shadows Z'Ha'Dum (Moria anyone?) and even giving a techno-mage Gildor's sentence about wizards being subtle and quick to anger. And there are many other examples.

I for my part do find this amusing.

Comments

[crowdaughter.livejournal.com]

Hi, Soledad!

Now, I happen to like B5 a great deal (even though I'm a devout Trekkie), but I always found it amusing that nobody seems to address the actual rip-off... cuz, let's face it, JMS has ripped off Tolkien, big time. Starting with naming the homeworld of the Shadows Z'Ha'Dum (Moria anyone?) and even giving a techno-mage Gildor's sentence about wizards being subtle and quick to anger. And there are many other examples.

Actually, there were many magazines in Germany that commented on that, and bashed B5 for it; while, on the other hand, some fans I know are equally eager to completely deny it. All I can say to it is: yes, he did take some blsatant ideas from Tolkien... so what? Many fantasy creations after Tolkien's books did that, and Tolkien stole er, got his inspiration from other myths and stories. It is the originality with which it all is put together that makes both creations great. So, the Mimbari are pretty clearly drawn after the Elves. Then again, I think the idea of have them stuck in a too-ordered society and have Luthien/Galadriel, er, Satai Delenn rock that society up well and good to ensure they can reach the modern times again, is a great twist. In a way, what JMS made out of his source is fascinating, and also a fascinating reverse reading of and comment on Tolkien's paradigm in itself. Also, in the end neither the Vorlons (aka the Valar?) not the Shadows (aka Morgoth's / Sauron's get?) are truly good or evil. They just have different philosophies they want the younger races to attend. And the solution for the younger races to deal with them is - to deny both and find their own way. That is blatantly against what Tolkien would have believed in; he seems to condone following authority, and sees it as corruption not to do so. So, I really like B5, and I can pretty much enjoy all the references to Tolkien, too, ;)

(My whole "Grey Company" cartoon lived from those ripped off elements...)

I did not like the fifth season of B5 that much, though. Besides, I just could not get used to Tracy Scoggins...

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

There's getting isnpiration and there's too much copying. IMO, JMS did the latter, but that's a matter of perspective. As I said, I do like B5 a lot... I especially liked it in Season 1, with Sinclair (I hate Sheridan as much as I hate Kirk, Dylan Hunt or Sheppard from Atlantis), who, for me, was a far more interesting character.

I didn't like Tracy Scoggins' character, either - it was boring and lacked personality. Personally, I didn't like Ivanova, either, but that was to a great part because of the wooden acting of Claudia Christian. I preferred Tamlyn Tomita from the pilot.

My personal favourite as characters go were the two Centauri, Londo and Vir; and I liked Neroon, the troubled Minbari. All the others had too many messianistic traits for my personal taste.

[cirdan-havens.livejournal.com]

Oh yes. I went into it not knowing that B5 would have so much religion. I just knew it was sci-fi and there was a Kosh. So first thing I noticed was similarity of names and species issues, union of man and elf, names, stuff like that. Even the wars seemed more like novel versions of war than real war based on current events. I sometimes wondered if JMS had watched Legend of Galactic Heroes, a Japanese sci-fi, no aliens but you have government, money, and religion as the main factors affecting events. Babylon 5: The Lost Tales. Obvious much? As for Star Trek vs. Babylon 5, I always thought fans were too fannish in wanting an opinion. _Everything_ is a rip in one form or another. JMS admits it. And we know he likes other sci-fi/fantasy stuff. What's the big deal? On Star Trek's side, their best episodes are often rips, the one I feel is most cited in academia being the Gilgamesh one.

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

Erm... which Gilgamesh one? *looks sheepishly* I know Gilgames, and I'm a rabid Trekkie, but right now, it doesn't ring a bell.

I liked B5, I really did, even though the religious stuff was getting on my nerves sometimes. "The Lost Tales", IMO, was absolute trash, made to bring in more money from the fans. Yeah, I bought it. Yeah, I regretted it.

As much as I prefer Start Trek (at least the first three series - Voyager was badly done and Enterprise wasn't Star Trek in anything but the trademark name, and the movies were mostly very week), I never tried to put B5 down. Part of the success of "Still Not in Kansas", my most appreciated story ever, is the fact that I've managed to merge B5 and Voyager in a way that fans on both sides liked it.

What I definitely hated was the fact how certain B5 actors *coughsClaudiaChristiancoughs* started to mouth off about what a pile of crap Star Trek was and how much superior B5 was supposed to be. And that, after admitting that she'd never seen an episode, but "her friends told her that it was so politically correct that it made her vomit".

[cirdan-havens.livejournal.com]

Oh, it's a rather obscure and insignificant episode, that's why. Picard and alien captain are trapped on a planet with big scary monster. Alien tries to communicate but language is like Babelfish through the universal translator. Guy keeps saying "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra." Eventually, Picard figures out that they speak in metaphor. It'd be like me saying: It's been a Feanorian day. Unfortunately, he figures it out just as they kill the monster and alien captain is mortally wounded. While guy's dying, he asks to hear a human story as a reference point. Picard tells him about Gilgamesh. Oh, and "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra" basically translates to "Gil-galad and Elendil at Mordor."

Wow, mean-spirited Trek bashing. Gotta love the idiots out there.

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

Oh, that one! I actually liked that episode very much, I just never realized there was a Gilgamesh reference. Although the translation seems a bit far-fetched for me...

A Feanorian day, eh? Sounds ominous.

[cirdan-havens.livejournal.com]

No kidding, but I've been having a lot of Feanorian days lately. -_-

Every time anyone even suggests that I become a high school teacher, I get tempted anew. I owe my life to some of my teachers and would really like to maybe unwittingly save the lives of others too. Teaching too. It's like meeting one of these young kids online and wanting to help mentor them when they ask for advice. But I have such attachment issues. I'm scared I'll get really bummed about having my students leave me, and even though my friend says they'll come back to visit, I'm not sure it'd be the same. Everyone I know agrees that the students are becoming increasingly immature. And there are years when you don't get any really truly good students, and those times must be horribly depressing. It's so very stressful and emotionally taxing too since I know I can't help any of them in the end. But honestly, I always think about it whenever I hear about a teaching situation/problem or when someone mentions that there's more job security in it. I know it must be different over there, but kids are kids and they do seem to be about just as good/bad over there as they are here. I was hoping maybe you could give me some advice. Figured I'd start asking teacher friends so I can more seriously make an informed decision instead of just telling myself that I don't have the emotional stability for it.

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm not the right person to give useful advice about teaching, considering how I've been feeling about my job since the current term started.

[cirdan-havens.livejournal.com]

Ah. Ok. One of my friends did say that if I'm naturally on the depressed side, school might not be the best thing for me. *hugs* So sorry things are still as they are.

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

Your friends are very right. EVen someone naturally very optimistic like me can get depressed in this education business.

[jen-rock.livejournal.com]

I've always wondered why so many people have to put down one show or another.
I loved Babylon 5. I love Star Trek and DS9 especially. Why is it so hard to like both? There was such a silly rvialry going on when B5 was on the air and people who were fans of one show but not the other were saying all sorts of negative things about the other. It was so childish. I was glad when Majel Barret-Roddenberry guest-starred on that one episode in an effort to quiet the rivalry.

And I liked that JMS included religion in the show. I don't think the Trek view of a humanity that "outgrew" religion(as Picard said) was very realistic. Religion plays a role in the lives of the vast majority of the planet and I don't think they would abandon their beliefs so easily even after the huge WWIII event that happened in the Trek past. One of my favorite B5 episodes was "Passing Through Gethsemane" with Brad Dourif. I remember reading that JMS showed that episode to a group of nuns and then they all discussed it afterwards. That amused me.

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

To be perfectly honest, the B5 fans started it - but Trek fans should have been mature enough *not* to pick up the glove... Personally, I find DS9 better, although that show, too, has glaring mistakes in my eyes, but that's really a matter of taste.

I think the greatest mistake was making Sisko one of the prophets... well, sort of... just because they didn't have the balls to allow a Starfleet officer to remain kind of a religious leader. So yes, Trek deals with religion in a fairly cowardly and stupid way (just like with homosexuality), at least the newest shows do. The original series had the occasional stupid episode in that area, too, but all in all, it was a lot more open-minded, IMO.

"Passing Through Getsemane" was a good episode. I generally like Brother Teo and his bunch of Trappist monks - although, of course, Trappists are sworn to silence and living in isolation, so I don't think the choice of the order was the right one. What I don't like in B5 is the whole messianic overtones re: both Sheridan and G'Kar. At least I like G'Kar, though. Sheridan, I absolutely detest.