Writing in English

[wiseheart]

Which is a topic on its own, hence the separate entry. A couple of months ago, I read a discussion on the now barely operating GAFF-board where someone declared that only native speakers should be allowed to write English fanficition.

The reactions were... mixed. Understandably. I haven't commented on it, because many people had said before me all the things I would have said. But I must admit that the sheer arrogance of that declaration made my blood boil for a while.

Many of us write English fanfiction, although we are lowly non-English speakers, because the fandoms we write in are English. If any of you had the bad luck to read, let's say, Star Trek terminology in German, or what's a lot worse, in Hungarian, you'll understand why we stick to the original language of the given fandom. I write original fantasy in German and Hungarian because the languages have a rich fantasy-related vocabulary. But an English fandom has its very own expressions that sound awkward at best and downright stupid at worst in other languages.

Not to mention the fact that - although this might sound self-congratulating - I've learn lots of stuff from native speakers in various fandoms who write a lot worse than I do. English might only be my third language, and certain aspects of English grammar will remain a mystery for me forever, but at least I can write. Higher proficiency in, say, punctuation, will never make up for the complete lack of originality, a good plot or decent characterization.

Besides, if I can find grammatical errors in native speakers' writing, then those errors must be blatant ones indeed. And I do find them repeatedly, even in pieces that supposedly went through the hands of a beta reader. Or two beta readers. And I'm not speaking of typos or homonyms here that can slip through every spellchecker.

And as for beta readers. It's easy to tell an author to get themselves a beta. But how many of the critics would be willing to actually do the beta work for aforementioned author? Or if they would, how many of them would you actually trust not to make things any worse?

Similarly on the GAFF board did I read an indignant comment that if someone wanted them to do the beta work, they should pay them. And that in the context of concrit, which was an interesting twist of the (lack of) logic. So, I do think that simply bark at an author to get a beta isn't entirely justified.

I have very generous betas (who even work for free, hehehe). But they also have lives. I can't expect people I trust to throw their lives out of the window, just to dig themselves through my "creative" grammar. I use spellchecker and grammar checker, but we all know how much they can do. and English is - forgive me, dear native speakers - a very illogical language. I've learned Russian, Romanian, French, German, Spanish and even a tiny little Dutch at some distant points of my life, but none of them did cause me so much problems ad English. Not even Russian, with its completely different alphabet. I still can read - and pronounce - Russian fairly well, even though I won't understand a word from what I'd be reading, but pronouncing a previously unknown English word is near impossible for me.

Still, I dare to think that my English is passable enough to use it publicly. I'd like that GAFFer to try their hands on Hungarian. *g*

Comments

[kln1671.livejournal.com]

I think I've commented before that most non-native English speakers that write in English for fanfiction write in English better than a good number of native English. I wonder sometimes if the schools have stopped teaching grammar, spelling, punctuation, and all the other basics of written English. *rolls eyes*

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

Well, if it's any comfort, similar things happen in all languages...

[makamu]

I have seen alleged native speakers use English in a way that seemed like or close to "linguistic rape". Forgive the term but it is the closest I come to describing this phenomenon.

I think there is a difference between using a language and being imperfect at it and seeking to improve one's grasp of the language (what you and I are doing with English and French and even with our native languages, I think) and what these people seem to be doing, namely just not caring. Which is kind of sad because how can we not cultivate the only means we have of interpersonal communication (imperfect though it is...)?

I guess I am just too much of a lingophile ;) My French in written form is horrible and yet I still love the language. Same with Latin, Greek, Japanese, Danish, Arabic and Spanish (languages I don't speak (yet) and yet love the sound of) How crazy is that?

Maybe this one of the reasons why we both love Tolkien and his work so much, because at the root of things, we are alike to him...

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

Oh, indeedly. I wish I had the time and the energy to pick up all the languages I began to learn once and had to drop for various reasons. Languages are so much fun!

[lhun-dweller.livejournal.com]

I *have* tried my hand at Hungarian (to use the correct English colloquialism [grin])... and I have been truly humbled.

I have studied French, German and Danish and NONE is nearly as different from English as Magyar (to use the correct name for "Hungarian" - note that we English speakers can't even get the *name* of your language right).

The quality of your writing has always impressed me. The fact that you can write so well in English just knocks me on my ass. That GAFFer needs to get a grip. Some of my favorite authors are non-native speakers.

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

That GAFFer needs to get a grip.

Yep, that was the general consensus by the other comments, too. It's just the arrogance that makes me angry about the original post. Otherwise, idiots can't help being idiots, can they?

[mirasaui.livejournal.com]

My required American History/Political Science texts at college were written by Alexis de Toqueville, a Frenchman. He had a better grasp than many US natives not only of our language but also our whole system of government!
Pooey on that person at GAFF.

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

Well, I guess an outsider often does see things better than those who are directly involved, eh?

[ithilwen.livejournal.com]

That GAFF discussion was dumb. What matters is the quality of the story, not the native language of the author!

What's happened with GAFF, that you refer to it as barely functioning? I've not been there in ages, so I've lost track of it.

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

They've overstepped their brandwith limit severely, so they're down half the time. Plus, 80 per cent of the forums are "protected" now, which means that only registered members can access them... theoretically. According to the whining on the Administrativa forum not even they can do so, most of the time. Not that the non-protected forums would be accessible more often than one ouf of ten times.

I don't go there often, either. The attitude that had spread all over the board has become just too disgusting. Too bad, I used to like the honest snark, back when they were on the InvisionFree boards.

[ithilwen.livejournal.com]

So GAFF has become a victim of its own popularity? maybe they ought to charge for membership. That would solve their bandwidth problem nicely - how many people would pay in order to read and write half-assed snark?

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

Oh, a handsome number of them have been paying for it for quite some time already. *g*

[jilba.livejournal.com]

Personally, I'd rather you and others wrote in English, otherwise the language challenged like me couldn't read it. I'd rather be able to read good fics and put up with odd error.

Really, your English is very very good. A very occasional tense error I pick up, but it doesn't spoil the flow of the work at all.

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

English tenses are Teh Evil (TM). They have absolutely no logic in them. None. Hungarian manages perfectly well with only three tenses: past, present and future. Everything else can be found out from the context. More than three tenses are decadence, really. *g*

[jilba.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree! It's what comes of English being such a mish mash of different languages forced to become one, you get weird tense stuff, words that sound the same (Whether, weather, wether) which are spelled differently and mean entirely different things.

[rcfinch.livejournal.com]

I never even visited the GAFF-board, and apparently I didn't miss much. Such arrogance is mind-blowing. I could name at least a dozen non-Anglophones whose English far outshines that of countless native speakers, including you (and me, but my native language is quite closely related to English, so that doesn't say much). When I hear about this kind of thing, I can't help wondering what's bugging these people. That some non-native authors of fanfiction get more attention than they do, perhaps?

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

Nah, originally there could be found wonderful snark. I used to laugh a lot. But the old GAFF-ers gradually left, and lately the board was ruled by young snot-noses whose only judgement rule was whether they liked the genre in question or not.

Hence the crusades against Mpreg (really, is the whole genre worth a crusade?) or the holy war of the self-proclaimed Tolkien-defenders with their half-baked canon "knowledge" who bashed over everyone of different opinions.

People don't seem to understand that there are two sorts of fanfic. One that is written out of love for the original, even if it bends the rules a bit, and one where people just want to share their similar fantasies. The two shouldn't be judged by the same measures, but both have their rights to exist, IMO.

[lhun-dweller.livejournal.com]

"...both have their rights to exist, IMO"

Oh, you wild radical, you!!! I suppose next you'll suggest something even more outrageous? Perhaps that Tolkien occasionally changed his mind or contradicted himself in his own writings over the years? [wink]

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

I hope you don't mean the teeeny detail that he gave Thranduil (a Sindarin prince) golden hair and later forgot all about it and declared that only the Vanyar had golden hair?

Which made many canon-conscious people bend backward to give Thranduil some Vanyarin ancestors, so that Leggy could stay a blonde bimbo, faithful to his movie image...

[gone2thedogs.livejournal.com]

HOLY VALAR! BATMAN! Are you telling us that Thranduil's Vanyarin ancestors are fanon???? Nooooooo, I love blonde (however not movie bimbo) Legolas.

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

It is fanon. The Vanyarin ancestors, I mean. Thranduil is a canonically certified blond. (See: The Hobbit)

Which doesn't hinder me to give Leggy auburn hair. Boy had a mother, too. *g*

[gone2thedogs.livejournal.com]

Thranduil is a canonically certified blond. (See: The Hobbit)


Yeah, that's probably why I've always seen Legolas as blond, I read "The Hobbit" first. But I do like auburn as well, that's how I see Haldir and his brothers :-)

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

Really? Interestingly enough, it's them whom I kept blond - not because their questionable movie alter-egos but because of the scene where a nameless Lórien guard's golden hair was shining in the sunlight.

Of course, since I established that Silvan Elves have that changing hair, I had to give them Nandorin ancestors to keep them blond. *g*

[ithilwen.livejournal.com]

HERETIC! *holds up cross* Go back to your dark master, creature of evil. Tolkien was perfect, and so is everything he wrote. You will not succeed in shaking my faith in the literal inerrancy of the One True Ardaverse Canon!

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

Isn't someone protesting too much...? *g*

[ithilwen.livejournal.com]

*puts hands over ears and begins to chant* "In a hole in the ground there lived a Hobbit... In a hole in the ground there lived a Hobbit..."

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

Where have I already seen this reaction? Oh, yes, on the GAFF board and on the PPC board and other places.

I'm reading a lengthy story right now, which would be actually very good if not for two teeny details.

1. The author is desperately trying not to change an iota in canon, especially Laws & Customs, which makes her Elves incredibly prudish - so much, indeed, that it makes them ridiculous.

2.The story is meant as an anti-Mary Sue, but all the effort not to make the OFC a Sue quite backfired. Why I could really feel for her in the original story, she keeps annoying me to hell in the sequel. In fact, she takes on more Sue-ish traits as the story goes on.

Of course, it's a very real danger for original characters. I remember another author whose stories I used to like but stopped reading altogether for all the Éowyn-bashing with the only goal to make the OFC more significant.