Torchwood & the attack of the plotbunnies

[wiseheart]

Entry bounced up a few days, so that more people can join the discussion if they want.

First, I wanted to give artemis10002000 this link. It's a discussion on a digitalspy forum titled "Frustration over Jack/Ianto's relationship".

It's a very interesting one, and people say a lot of thing I deeply agree with. Especially considering Gwen's role and the overdue attention she gets from both Jack and the scripwriters. I mean, she's an interesting character, and I like the actress, but the way Gwen throws her weight around as if she were the boss of Torchwood 3, after what, three weeks with the team? Honestly, I find it ridiculous. And I just can't accept that the others, who'd been there for years, would simply take it.

Possible spoilers behind the tag!

I also agree with the people partaking in the discussion that Ianto has been threated badly in Season 1 (that's all I've seen so far) both by Jack and the scriptwriters. I for myself can't buy his suddenly getting involved with Jack and being so nonchalant about it, only weeks after he's told him he hated him and that Jack was the worst monster out there - which is, in a certain context, actually true.

The other character really mistreated is Toshiko. I don't know what the original concept was, but she comes over as the most level-headed, not to mention most intelligent character in the entire show. Actually, the only regular character next to Ianto who doesn't seem a cardboard caricature. Yet she's the most neglected one. Yes, I know she had her Own (lesbo) episode - and just how terribly clichéd was that?

And her undying love for Owen? Forget it! I can't possibly imagine what any woman would see in Owen. Aside from him looking like an old woman (and a particularly ugly one), he's an ever bigger jerk than Jack is. A jerk who seems to enjoy to be mean to the others and knows enough about them to hurt them, which he does regularly and with delight.

Also, getting back to Gwen - why did the writers make her turn out such a slut? I mean, her boyfriend, Rhys, is a really nice one, and lover her like crazy, only God knows why. Yet she cheats on him with Owen and is all over Jack all the time. To the point that she even throws jealous fits over him and Ianto (not that there would be much to be jealous of - IMO their relationship is just what Owen has so nicely called it: a "part-time shag".

In a show that's based on character interaction (given the lack of special effects and other decorative stuff), that's really bad writing, ladies and gents. We're supposed to identify with the characters, don't we? Well, the only characters I can identify with are Tosh and Ianto. All the others are just egomaniac jerks. Sorry.

And since whenever I'm unhappy with the course a show takes, the plotbunnies have attacked again. I got this weird idea about Ianto leaving Jack and his pet slut after Series 2 and getting sent to 5th Season Atlantis by the British Prime Minister, to represent British interests as Richard Woolsey's personal aide.

There he would make fast friends with Miko (mostly because she'd remind him of Tosh: both nice, underestimated Japanese computer geniuses, desperately in unrequited love with a co-worker)... and I think he and Dr. Beckett (now that we have Carson back) would make the ideal couple.

I could swear that I'm not going to write the story, especially as I have several dozen WIPs already. But we all know how my muses work. Currently, I'm trying to resist, particularly as I haven't seen mneither Season 5 of Atlantis yet nor Series 2 of Torchwood. All I have are a few sentences that have popped up in my head like bad advertising. Sentences like these:

Ianto: (to Jack, upon leaving Torchwood) I'm tired of fighting Gwen for your affections.

Then, after the end of SGA, Ianto returns to GB with Carson. Jack visits and tries to re-hire him for Torchwood, since honestly, having Gwen as the only employee? So not gonna work! To his surprise, Ianto refuses.

Ianto: Trochwood is behind me. It's in the past. /This is my life now.

Jack: (looks around and takes in Carson's simple home.) This? A meek little middle-class life with picket fences and haggis and a soft teddy bear in kilt to shag? That's what you want?

Ianto: That's what I'd like to have. But I know it will never be like that. There'll always be dangers, and I'll face them when I have to. I just won't seek them out actively any longer. I'm not an immortal like you, Jack - I need to use what little time is granted to me well.


Not much of a bunny, I know. That's why I hope by God that I'll be able to resist it for quite a time yet. ;))

Comments

[artemis10002000]

First of all, thanks for the link. I always love to discover or be recommended new places to discuss fandom.

Your plot bunny sounds really interesting! So I'm of two minds about you resisting it, as I know on one hand how annoying it is to have way too many works in progress when you don't have much time to write, but on the other hand I'd really like to read it :) Although I'd probably be hopelessly lost, with this being SGA season 5 and me not having watched since season 2 :D

Toshiko is going to be revealed to be in love with Owen? *rubs her eyes in surprise* Well, I'd seen that coming even less than the Owen/Gwen kiss in Cyberwomen and that already made me think "what the hell?" I liked Owen in that episode of his, the ghost one last week on RTL2. But otherwise, I can't really stand him. I disliked him ever since he used that hormone spray in the pilot to get laid. For me, that's not much better than using a conventional date rape drug. Besides, he's just too much of a macho guy for my liking. So far we haven't seen much of Toshiko besides her being background decoration and provider of information useful for Gwen or Jack, but still, she doesn't seem to be the kind of girl who'd fall for a jerk like Owen. Or maybe she always falls for the wrong kind of guy.

Yeah, and Gwen running after every shiny new man when she already has that sweetie Rhys? *groans* It's like Moonlight all over again. Although I think the Torchwood writers have the guts to just risk making her unsympathetic to the audience by having her cheat on him and/or break up with him, since they aren't bothered by unsympathetic characters. So I don't see a heroic death for Rhys that frees Gwen for whatever shiny new guy she can get anytime soon in the future. I can't decide yet whether that's a good or a bad thing. He's such a cutie, I don't want to see him all heart-broken. Meh, maybe I'm just horribly old-fashioned, but they make such a point of showing how much Gwen is in love with Rhys and how happy and harmonic their relationship is, so I don't get it why she keeps eyeing and kissing (and possibly more in the future?) other people even without the handy excuse of "alien hormones made me do it." Instead of inserting happy couple scenes all the time, they could've just had Gwen resist Jack's/Owen's/whoever's charms, that'd have done the deed as well and been more convincing *sigh*

This? A meek little middle-class life with picket fences and haggis and a soft teddy bear in kilt to shag? That's what you want?
Yeah, and that's what I can really see Ianto wanting to have, too, though these aspirations are doomed with Jack unless the writers turn him around 180° - and that wouldn't make me happy either, I hate it when authors just replace a character's personality to suit their plot. We haven't exactly seen much of him yet, but I can totally see him striving for that normal life and suffering because he can't have it.

On the other hand, I don't have a problem with most Torchwood characters being unsympathetic, since most of the time I like the villains or grey characters better than the heroes anyway. As long as they don't take it as far as the New BSG, anyway. By the time I stopped watching it, I thought the Cylons had had the right idea when they decided to wipe out humanity.

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

Your plot bunny sounds really interesting! So I'm of two minds about you resisting it, as I know on one hand how annoying it is to have way too many works in progress when you don't have much time to write, but on the other hand I'd really like to read it :) Although I'd probably be hopelessly lost, with this being SGA season 5 and me not having watched since season 2 :D

It isn't much good after Season 1, to be honest, but I'm a faithful kind of viewer when it comes to sci-fi. Also, I usually hunt down the extended synopses from Gateworld, and I'm on a Yahoo mailing list where they post every single episode transcript from Stargate, so I'm fairly well-informed what will be going on. Unlike most people, I don't mind spoilers at all, since I get everyone at least one year later than it was originally aired, and without spoilers, I wouldn't understand what people are talking about.

I started off liking Gwen, actually, but the way she's developed, I ended up despising her very much. Don't worry about Rhys, he'll stay, although Gwen most likely doesn't deserve him. He'd need someone faithful, like Toshiko - although those damn alien hormonal manipulations seem to turn everyone into a great slut, at least for one episode. Somehow I have the feeling that Russel T. Davis wants to show just how brave he is, showing all kinds of free sex, even if it completely ruins the chance of sensible characterization.

I think Ianto and Carson would make a perfect couple, because both have suffered terrible losses in the past - hey, 5th season Carson isn't even the original one, since the idiot creators have killed him off in season 3 and brought him back a year later as his own clone, perhaps in fear that the fans would burn down the studios or whatnot. Also, Carson is a big-hearted, gentle character who was forced to do terrible things in order to defeat the Wraith. I think they'd be support and great comfort for each other.

The main reason why I can't really buy the Jack/Ianto thing, despite the fact that they're very HOTT in action with each other is that Jack simply doesn't live by the same rules as everyone else. He's gonna be here forever and the others will die, so what's the meaning of having any kind of relationship with him, save from the occasional sex in the office? He's just an animated dildo, and expecting any emotions from him would be a mistake.

New BSG isn't BSG at all. It just has the same title. I refused to ever watch it since I heard about the whole genderbending thing at the first time, and seeing the teasers between SGA and Torchwood on RTL II show me how very right I was. I mean, those computer-animated Cylons look even more idiotic than the original, clumsy ones. And I have to see one human face from that show that wouldn't be utterly disgusting.

[artemis10002000]

Yeah, and when you're an European and want to be active in fandom, it's nearly impossible to avoid spoilers anyway. Forum discussions, fanfic, they're everywhere.

Of course, it's possible that the producers have decided to go the "sex sells" way to be successful internationally with Torchwood. A lot of bare skin has become a staple in science-fiction, after all, like in every genre. Which makes me feel kinda nostalgic for 90s sci-fi. I can still remember how fans mocked Seven of Nine's skin-tight uniform. I feel old when I think of that, it's like it's a completely different age of television :D

Woah, Carson was killed in season 3? Meanies!

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

That's why I hate so much when people keep bitching about spoilers. I mean, if you get your fix every week, it's one thing, but if you have to wait for years...

And it might be true that sex sells, but not in such a clumsy manner. It's downright ridiculous, not exciting. IMO sex needs to be believable to sell a show... or perhaps the problem is that I'm not horny 14-year-old?

Yep, they killed Carson. But they brought him back, so I might write that Ianto story one day, after all.

I got another weird idea from the "sex sells" slogan. Ianto and Miko commiserate about their lost loves (if you remember, Miko used to live in wide-eyed awe for Rodney) and then begin to kiss. Miko feels bad about it, but Ianto tells her: "There's nothing wrong with comfort sex." *g*

[artemis10002000]

That's why I hate so much when people keep bitching about spoilers. I mean, if you get your fix every week, it's one thing, but if you have to wait for years...
Exactly!

And it might be true that sex sells, but not in such a clumsy manner. It's downright ridiculous, not exciting. IMO sex needs to be believable to sell a show... or perhaps the problem is that I'm not horny 14-year-old?
No idea. I'd really like to know whether it ever worked with a science-fiction series, though. I'm not at all convinced. With, say, Sex and the City, Californication and so on, yeah, it obviously works. But sci-fi? I can't really picture many people who aren't interested in sci-fi becoming regular viewers just for the bare skin. I think there are way too many shows of every genre with naked skin and sex for that to work anymore. With Torchwood as a possible exception, since m/m and f/f is still pretty rare, at least outside of comedy, so people might be watching it just to see gay and lesbian relationships/sex/flirting/etc being portrayed as normal, even if they don't like sci-fi otherwise. If they just want to see two people getting it on, though, again, not convinced... there's plently of porn for that on the net :D

I got another weird idea from the "sex sells" slogan. Ianto and Miko commiserate about their lost loves (if you remember, Miko used to live in wide-eyed awe for Rodney) and then begin to kiss. Miko feels bad about it, but Ianto tells her: "There's nothing wrong with comfort sex." *g*
*laughs* Coming from Ianto, that'd be so adorable.

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

You know, it might have exactly been the way it started with him and Jack. I'm toying with the idea to write exactly *that* story - but first I need to read some fanfic to see how other people solved the problem so that I can come up with a better solution. *g*

Yeah, I'm narcistic, how did you know? Sometimes you just have to admire yourself until the rest of mankind finally sees the light...

[artemis10002000]

You know, it might have exactly been the way it started with him and Jack. I'm toying with the idea to write exactly *that* story - but first I need to read some fanfic to see how other people solved the problem so that I can come up with a better solution. *g*
You mean writing that as a Jack/Ianto or a Carson/Ianto?

Yeah, I'm narcistic, how did you know? Sometimes you just have to admire yourself until the rest of mankind finally sees the light...
*lol*

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

Jack/Ianto, of course. With Carson he's gonna fall in love because Carson is everything that Jack is *not*.

There's another little piece of dialogue having popped up in my head. After that "picket fences" moment.

Jack: Are you telling me that you don't want me anymore? (eventually with some suggestive groping...)

Ianto: Oh, I do want you all right... perhaps always will. But he [Carson] is whom I need. (or something like that - I'll have to work on the phrasing some more)

[artemis10002000]

I really like that little piece of dialogue. Especially the "he is whom I need." That really sums up quite nicely how Ianto feels about Jack and Carson. Hmmm... I wonder, how does Carson feel about Ianto's history with Jack and that there's an attraction between them that will probably never fully go away?

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

I've tried to write a little Ianto/Carson piece today, and it seems to work rather nicely. You see, Carson also has a chip on his shoulder: he's a clone, and has identity problems. He's Carson - and yet he isn't. The Carson all these people knew and loved is dead. He has the man's DNA, knowledge, memories, personality - but is he truly the same person? Or just some freak of nature... where "nature" had preciously little to do with his creation. He was cloned by a Wraith, for Pete's sake!

More bits of dialogue for you.

Carson: (licking his lips, after Ianto had kissed him) You know, I usually don't walk that side of the street, but this was... nice. It's been quite long since I was last kissed. Actually, I've never been kissed in this body before.

After which Ianto asks him what he means and they discuss the problem of being a clone.

And another one, after Jack & Gwen learn that not only Ianto but Dr. Martha Jones, too, has been invited to an audience with the PM, Harriet Jones.

Jack: Is that some secret conspiration for the Joneses to take over the world?

Ianto: (bland smile) If it is, I haven't been sent a bulletin yet, sir.

Gah, I need a Torchwood icon!

[artemis10002000]

Ooooh, he's cloned by the Wraith? What plan did they have for him? I so need to read up on Stargate Atlants.

Jack: Is that some secret conspiration for the Joneses to take over the world?
Ianto: (bland smile) If it is, I haven't been sent a bulletin yet, sir.
*giggles* That's brilliant!

Yeah, with Carson having identity problems about being a clone, I can really see him bonding with Ianto over their self-consciousness. After all, poor little Ianto suffers under the "just the butler" syndrome as we learn in Cyberwomen.

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

Re: Carson
You saw the end of Season 2, didn't you? Remember Michael? The Wraith they briefly turned into a human? Well that guy managed to stuck somehow between the two, but considerably closer to Wraith, if I'm not mistaken.

In any case, he somehow got his paws on Carson's DNA around the beginning of Season 3 - in which season the idiot creators killed off carson, to replace him with the brainless girl with the distinct lack of personality.

Somewhere around the end of Season 4 (or early Season 5?) they find another lab of Michael's, and the Carson clone there, being forced to help Michael creating Wraith/Human hybrids.

They get clone!Carson out of there, but have to put him into cryostasis for a while, until they find a way to stop his cells or whatnot from degenerating. But along Season 5, he's in every other episode, healing folks on different planets (since he doesn't have his old job anymore), and even gets to save the day in the finale. I think he survives, but I'm not entirely sure. Well, he will survive in this story.

RE: Ianto
It's right that he's frustrated from being just the butler. He used to be a junior researcher at Torchwood One, after all (whatever that means), under the wings of senior researcher Rupert Howarth. Sure, that's only in some comic, but I'd like to read it. Like the novels Trace Memory and Twilight Streets where he gets some background, according to Wikipedia.

What angers me more is the fact that he had to cringle and grovel at Jack's feet to get this shitty job at TW3 three frigging years ago, while the same Jack practically hired a totally unqualified Gwen from the streets. For what, I ask you? The woman couldn't even shoot, for God's sake!

At least Owen and Tosh were excellent in their scientific field, but what did Gwen have to offer, aside from being obnoxious and a pain in the arse? And yet she gets to be the boss at the beginning of series 2, while Jack is absent? Oh, please somebody shoot me! Isn't there such thing as senior members first?

[artemis10002000]

Ah, so that's the story of clone Carson. Sounds really interesting. So if he doesn't have his old job anymore, is he still working for the Atlantis mission or is he healing people as a freelance doctor?

Yeah, and in TW, he did heal/repair the Cyberwoman. EVen with her helping, that can't be done by a mere butler. I see him as being really underwhelmed by his new job in Torchwood 3. Making coffee and cleaning up after the others must be boring him to tears.

And Gwen gets to be boss? Huh. Weird. The authors must really, really love her. I'd have seen Tosh as being best qualified for second-in-command, she's always at the top of the game, very level-headed, has several years of job experience (though Ianto would make a good one, too, if only he's actually involved in the missions and got the necessary field experience.)

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

Carson is fighting the Hoffan plague (whatever that is) all over the Pegasus galaxy, with the theoretical support of Atlantis, but otherwise rather independently.

Ianto has offered to take such a job, actually, but we'll only see it in the penultimative episode of Series 2 - about a year or so, if RTL2 is feeling generous. But I've gone and read all the transcripts, and now I have the knowledge. *g*

I agree with you about Tosh being best-qualified to be second-in-command. Of course, it never happens. In one episode, where Jack isn't awailable, Owen steps in as the ranking member, and after that, of course, WonderGwen is taking the reins.

Yep, the writers really do love her, although I can't for my life imagine while. She's an annoying git and stupid obendrein. Sorry for the Germanism, but at least you understand it.

[artemis10002000]

Huh, Hoffan plague... Weird. Weren't the Hoff the one with the Wraith-vaccination? Maybe that mutated and turned into a plague? *scratches head*

They left Owen in charge? Oh dear. It's a miracle earth still exists. Owen may be good in his job, he must be to be in Torchwood, but I can't see him at all as the responsible and reliable leader. He doesn't think before he acts.

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

Yep, those were the Hoffans, all right. It turns out, the Wraith simply killed the entire planet afterwards, since the Hoffans have become toxic for them. Of course, there would have been more intelligent solutions, but then Weird and Sheppard wouldn't have turned out to be right, so the planet had to die, from the scripwriters' POV. That's why I've chosen a different solution in "Out of Legends". Of course, I had the invincible Tyr Anasazi to help me. *g*

Owen was only in charge for one mission, I think. Yeah, he's kind of impulsive, but at least he does have a brain - soemthing you can't say about Gwen, IMO.

I'm about to update telekis_vendiak with a few Torchwood fanfic recs. Found some on the Ianto comm with some wonderful Gwen bashing, so I feel the need to spread the right attitude among the unenlightened masses. ;)

[artemis10002000]

What a waste, to just kill off the Hoffans! I was already very disappointed when Atlantis just cut off their ties to the Hoffans, thus ensuring that the Hoffans wouldn't be recurring aliens, but to kill them off completely... A shame. They're such an interesting people, so tough, independent, fatalistic and ruthless. Just how I picture a people who have faced the Wraith time and again. I could really see them as Pegasus natives a lot easier than the countless naive-barbarians-adoring-the-high-and-mighty-Atlantis-crew aliens of the week.

I'm looking forward to your Torchwood recs.

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but that was the problem with them: they didn't adore Teh Sheppard enough!

First TW recs are up at telekis_vendiak.

[artemis10002000]

They *gasp* had the audacity to actually think for themselves and make their own decisions! They must be evil!

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

As you say. *nods sagely*
There had to be severe retaliation.